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Do you think that God created the Universe. If not, then how has it been created?

Hey Acizmadia!
Awesome that you actually managed to get into the forum despite the german instructions! Would be cool to have some international discussions going on here...concerning your question: imagine there is and/or was extraterrestrial life out there...why shouldn't God have created earth? It all depends on in which kind of God you believe. The problem with religion is that most of the time humankind is believed to be the Crown of Creation. Being religious generally implies that extraterrestrial life is simply not possible. But wouldn't it be even more inspiring to think of a God who has created more than just one race? I think it was Jodie Foster in Contact who said that it would be an awful waste of space if humankind would be the only life in the universe...well, I agree with her! As for me, if I would be a religious person (which I am not really), this thought would make my personal picture of THE creator of human life even more complete! The thought that extreterrestrial life exists or at least existed does not make it impossible to be a strong believer in God...being a believer in a specific kind of religion, however, might turn out to be hard!

Well, let me know what you think about that!

Gaby

Gaby Tobler schrieb:

So do I. By the way, Contact is my favourite film. It starts a bit boring but after a while it gets very exciting. And the end is a lot like todays science would react! (I don't tell the end so that no one who doesn't know the film but would like to watch it will be angry ! )

Back to your question. I think God in which religious people believe didn't create universe. By the way, is God always written in capital letters? This God (these Gods) probably made our earth to what it is today. I think of terraforming or destroying a planet in order to make life possible on our planet. (You definitely know about the asteroids-belt in our solar system.) And they could have used gentic-engeniering with us and some animals or plants (e.g. dogs or corn). Further they could have teached us important things about medicin, everyday life, maths, asterology, ... (I personally think they did)
But the question who created them or their creators (and so on) and who created universe remains unanswered. And I'm not sure wheter it can be answered in the futur. So there is enough room for both, ancient visitors on our planet and something like a God or a higher power who created life and universe.

I hope my english is good enough so you can understand what i try to say

The phrase "yours faithfully" doesn't fit in here (internet) i think. But I don't know what I should write then.

Thomas Mc Kie

Hi Folks!

In the Arabic alphabet, as well as Islaam and Hinduism, "The Creator" and "The All Consciousness" are two separate items. Hmmm......

Greg

Hey Greg!
I have never digged deeper into the subject...however, I found quite some different names for God in Arabic (Creator = "Ya Khalaaq") => the One Hundred Most Beautiful Names of God, and their English translations:

Ya Muhyee O Quickener, Bringer to Life
Ya `Aahad O One and Only
Ya `Aakhir O Last
Ya Mu`akhherr O Fulfiller (`A-KH-R End, Ender)
Ya Mu`idd O Restorer (`A-D-Y deliver, payment)
Ya `Aazalee O Eternal (in the past)
Ya Mughnee O Sufficer (`A-GH-N Free from Want)
Ya `Aallah O God
Ya Mumeed O Slayer (`A-M-D Limit, end)
Ya Mumeen O Faithful (`A-M-N)
Ya `Aawwal O First
Ya Mubdee O Beginner
Ya Barr O Good
Ya Baari O Skilled Worker
Ya Ba`eeth O Raiser from the Dead (referring to the final judgement)
Ya Mujeeb O Hearer of Prayer, Glorification
Ya Basir O Seeing
Ya Baseet O Uncloser
Ya Batin O Hidden
Ya Baaqiy O Eternal (in the future)
Ya Rahmaan O Merciful
Ya Razzaaq O Provider
Ya Rasheed O Unerring (Following the Right Way)
Ya Raffee O Exalter
Ya Raqeeb O Watchful, Guardian
Ya Ra`oof O Provider (K-W-F)
Ya Salaam O Peace
Ya Samee’ O One who hears (S-M-`A)
Ya Shaakir O Thankful
Ya Shakoor O Appreciator
Ya Shahid O Witness, Martyr
Ya Saboor O Patient
Ya Sammad O Eternal, Solidity
Ya Musawwir O Sculptor (S-WW-R)
Ya `Aadil O Equitable
Ya `Azeez O Strong
Ya `Azeem O The Most High
Ya `Alim O Knower
Ya `Ali O Exalted
Ya Ghaffaar O Pardoner
Ya Ghafoor O Forgiver
Ya Ghanee O Sufficient
Ya Fatih O Opener, Conqueror
Ya Qadeer O Providence, Fate, Omnipotent
Ya Muqtadir O Powerful (Q-D-R)
Ya Muta'alee O One above reproach (T-'A-L (`A-H-`A) Highest)
Ya Tawwab O Relenting (acceptance, repentance)
Ya Jaami O Gatherer
Ya Jabbar O Compelling
Ya Jaleel O Glorious
Ya Jameel O Beneficent
Ya Hatim O Mighty
Ya Hafiz O Preserver
Ya Haqq O Truth
Ya Hakim O Wise
Ya Hakim-al-Mutlaq O Judge of Judges
Ya Halim O Clement
Ya Hameed O Praiseworthy
Ya Ha`iy O Life (H-Y-Y)
Ya Khabeer O He Who Knows
Ya Mukhbeer One Who Informs
Ya Khafeez O Abaser
Ya Khalaaq O Creator
Ya Rabb O Lord
Ya Raheem O Beneficent (Pity)
Ya Kareem O Generous
Ya Lateef O Gracious
Ya Mateen O Firm, Robust
Ya Hasib O Reckoner (Noble)
Ya Majeed O Glorious
Ya Mukeed O Maintainer, Assurer
Ya Malik O King
Ya Malik-al-Mulk O King of the Kingdom
Ya Mumeen O Faithful
Ya Mannaan O Giver of Good
Ya Manee' O Withholder (M-N-`A, Impregnable)
Ya Nafi' O Favorably Inclined (N-F-'A to be useful, profitable)
Ya Muntaqim O Avenger (N-Q-M, Vengeance)
Ya Noor O Light
Ya Hadi O Guide
Ya Muhaymin O Helper in Peril, Protector (H-Y-M Passionate Love)
Ya Wajeed O Perceiving (Existence) (wajdaan means "Inner consciousness")
Ya Waahid O One
Ya Wadood O Loving
Ya Waarith O Inheritor
Ya Quddos O Holy One
Ya Muqaddeem O Forewarner (Q-D-M)
Ya Muqsit O Equitable (Q-S-T)
Ya Quahhar O Conqueror, Violence, Force
Ya Qawee O Mighty, Strong of Mind
Ya Qayyoom O Self Sustaining, Straight
Ya Kabeer O Very Great
Ya Mutakabbeer O Majestic
Ya Wasi' O Abundant (W-S-'A Vast)
Ya Wakeel O Guardian, Trusted One
Ya Walee O Nearest Friend (W-L-Y)
Ya Walee al-Ahsan O Friend of the Believers
Ya Waliy O Governor
Ya Wahhab O Bestower, Giver

And I assume that one can find just as many translations for God in other religions! Important to keep in mind is how these translations actually originated. I personally believe that neither the Quran nor the Bible can be taken as the true word of god. People wrote, delivered and translated these holy scripts according to the way they understood the world...according to the context they lived in...just look at the role of women in the bible and the Quran...regognizing that patriarchal societies were the founders of Islam and Christianity the texts we find today do not come as a surprise to me! How should they have known better? Currently there are many female scholars fighting for a new translation of the Quran. And these new translation efforts should not only focus on gender issues of course! Looking at holy scripts from a more modern point of view should give us more insights (in terms of technologies etc)! Anyway...just wanted to give a short reply and welcome YOU Greg in the Forum!
Seems like this forum is finally coming alive!
hope to hear more from you in future! Would be cool to have some discussions going here...
Gaby

Hi Folks, you too Gaby! (grin)

You've used that cut and paste list before haven't you... just waiting to pounce and use it agian! I recognise the type (I also have such lists buried from the good ol' BBS days, when Gopher was a radical improvement to the web).

I agree that to understand the books one must have to understand the social, political and economic situation of the times they were written. Some directions were of a time and some were for all time and all seem to incorporate parts of the other books. I've always found the gap in the NT re JC's life curious (Claire Prophet's interpretation notwithstanding). Rumours have it that there are mssing duplicates of the books burned after the Council of Nicaea rejected Bishop Arius' (hence Arianism) proposition that JC ascended to divinity vs. being born divine. This was a political fiat of a decision to soothe Constantine who demanded that the bickering stop since it was causing divisions in the empire.

The debate was more evenly divided than the final vote shows, i.e. 2 or 3 dissenting opinions. They dragged ol' Anthony-of-the-Desert out of the desert to Alexandria. He was upset at being taken away from battling demons and developing his curative abilities. He gave the council holy shit literally for ever doubting JC inherent divinity and the final vote was overwhelming. Anthony was the founder of the hermetic/monastic movement.

But, the various aspects of an All Consciousness, including being the original Creator nothwithstanding, inherent in the Arabic and Hindu alphabets themselves, the "Creator" or "various Creators" are physical entities from the ether. Or these were humans were some sort of clamidium or psionic abilities. Both theories fit the legends and historical data. i.e. the Greek battles of the Giants and Clash of the Titans, the sky and space wars referred to in the Vedas.

I tend to favour the clamidium theory more, because there is more evidence to support it (as well as words for the phenomina dating back over 2,000 years!).
There's Soviet data from the 40's and 50's as well as US data from the 60's that have been tracking this. U. of Edinburgh (Sp?) puiblished the Delanoy Meta Analysis in the early nineties that gave a base line for the general level of human psi abilities.

SRI's kiddy data from the 60's shows 3 to 8 year olds going from 85-95% predictive ability to 25% as they aged and siocialised , where 20% was the null hypothesis.

The medical community has also found your "crystal palaces" inside your skull 1) Pineal 2) Ptituitary 3) Cerebellum 4) Cortex. Now in India there's what's called the "Diamond Hum Mantra" or Vajrahumkara, personified by Trailokyaivijaya. As Sanskrit  is a derivative of "The Language of the Divine City of Lights", we're at a curious juxtaposition in linguistics where cross cultural puns are actually explanatory:

Va - j - ra - hum - kara - go purifier hum cars or sin or ka ra - learn lord

Trail o ky avi jaya - the trail of key to avi(ator)'s divisions or eggs - Ja, Ya man!
trail o kyav i jaya - the trail of coffee and eggs!

Heh, heh. So a little burst of piezolelectricity or managing your thoughts and Chi or Kundalini or Kundu (Asia to Africa) energy to reach those places and..... supraconciousness - the higher consciousness developed from within. It can be a lot of fun accessing the historial data in your reptilian brain and crystals - usually its a nightmare currently. Problems arise when the data hits your conscious memory and you tend to get a little off the wall like "Sticky Icky Eye Key" - David Icke, UK and the reptilian conspiracy or "I'm Mr. Galactic Council channelling an entity called Zoosh!" - Rober Shapiro of the California brand of nutters. Get it straight Shapiro, it's "Zoo!... SHut the fuck up!"

Leading to... if you were a psychic race... when and how would you make contact?

Gimme a chance, and I'll poison your mind (evil laugh)!

Greg
(The queerest of the queer! - and I'm not gay!)

Hi folks!

Just warning you all - I was a creche baby in a Soviet client state. Humm....

Just,
Greg

Hello fellow seekers of SETI. This is my first appearance on the forum and I hope that I don't make a right pigs ear of it.

Anyway, I became interested in the search after reading a book by a British scientist who claimed that ancient man knew his environment to the point that he could make sound educated guess. One such guess was similar in many respects to Abe Lemaitre's Big Bang. He claimed that the opening passages of the biblical book of Genesis gave a concise description for the very beginning of the universe and everything in it.

God seen the light and saw that the light was good - A reference to the light that heralded the beginning.
God divided the light from the darkness - A reference to the expanding universe.

At first, I was very impressed by this but later began to realise that the scientist in question was (in my opinion) misleading the reader.
When I seriously looked at the passages mentioned, I seen that which has been briefly mentioned, but when I seen the passages as from the start to finish of one day, I seen a knowledge that fails to be of human origin for it's content implies that someone of an educated back ground was passing on information in the briefest form.

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.
The earth was without form and void, darkness was over the face of the deep.
God said; 'Let there be light' and there was light, and the light was good.
God separated the light from the darkness. He called the light 'Day' and the darkness he called, 'Night'.

Can anyone see that which I seen ?

If there is such a person as God, and should God be of extraterrestrial origin, then the passages mentioned with there hidden knowledge may help towards the search in proving his existence - or at least his passing on superior knowledge, but can you see it ?

Please give me a shout.
Ron Edwards - Seti Seeker.

The ancient books are mostly about Earth, for example "the Earth was without void and form".
We must remember that the Earth is a tiny planet, circling around an ordinary star in a small corner of an ordinary galaxy in an ordinary Local Group in an ordinary Supercluster.

See these links to get an idea of how small Earth actually is:
anzwers.org 
www.geocities.com 

We are in a remote corner on an insignifanct planet. The creation of the universe has 'nothing' to do with the formation of Earth - a looong time later on.

Next to that the bible and other sources talk about "light" in the early universe, though obviously there was no light at all untill the universe was about 300.000 years old at the very least because it was just a thick mass of quarks flying around.
> There was nó light in the beginning of the universe!

Then, another point is that the book of Genesis from the bible has the order of events of evolution totally wrong; see the following link :
www.talkorigins.org 

Obviously there was no day or night before the solar system formed either.

Genesis 1 even claims that the Earth was created before the Sun and the other stars.

Of course all elements heavier than Hydrogen and Helium were nót created during the Big Bang but were created by fusion in stars, which later on exploded throwing heavier elements (such as carbon) into open space.
It would be a bit long to explain the whole formation of the solar system here, but certain is that other stars were around a lot longer and that our Sun came in to existance before the Earth did.

There's nothing remarkably about Genesis; in fact it's remarkable how much is wrong with it.

There is nothing to learn from Genesis ?

Hi Stefan.
May I take this opportunity to apologise for the serious delay in returning to answer your forum post - I've had computer problems
Now to our interesting debate regarding the Genesis description of day one - Or should I say, a differing interpretation relating to day one.

I had read a various assortment of books over a period of time by famous authors as;
Erich Von Daniken, Robert Temple, Alan Alforde, Graham Hancock, John West and Colin Wilson, to name just afew. Each author presented their interesting and sometimes speculative view for the concept of advanced knowledge being known at such an infant time in man's push and progress to be masters of all they survey.

At first, I accepted their circumstantial evidence with passing interesting, until I read a book by John Cribbin, a British Scientist and author of books that cover the realm of the Cosmos. In his book, White Holes, John presented Abe Lemaitre's 'big bang' theory whilst offering that ancient man had presented a remarkable and in many respects a similar but primitive description.

God had seen the light and that the light was good - This has been interpreted as the light that heralded the creation of the universe.
God divided the light from the darkness - This reference has been interpreted as the expansion of the universe.

John cautions the reader not to view these infamous biblical passages with the possibility of extraterrestrial visitors teaching anything to ancient man on the grounds that there is valuable missing information.

If ancient man presented their big bang lay person description with such scientific formula similar to your own knowledge, or such knowledge as one would expect to receive from the scientific fraternity, then we would have just cause to believe that such information was in fact extraterrestrial in origin.
But ancient man only presented a primitive child like description as the scientific jargon was probably beyond their intellect. Therefore, we must place ourselves in their shoes and see such information in their eye's - And not with ours.

With this in mind, if we care to look at the biblical day one of Genesis, we will see a different interpretation, a remarkable advanced knowledge that may or may not be extraterrestrial, but was certainly remarkable - Well, I think that it was.

1. God created the Heavens - This may imply that the heavens were in situ prior to the Earth being formed ?
2. God created the Earth - This may imply that the Earth was one of the last planets to form from the creation ?
3. The description of our infant Earth being without form, elasticated, and liquiefied is an accurate, remarkable but primitive child like description - You have got to give them some credit ?
4. The biblical light could well be the Sun ?
5. The light was seen as being good - We don't need to be a rocket scientist to comprehend the importance of the Sun on the Earth and brining forth life.
6. As for the darkness - Well, that has got to be obvious ?
7. The darkness could well imply the Erath turning on it's axis due to the gravitational influence of the Sun.

It would seem obvious that those who seek knowledge require concrete scientific equations and hard evidence as confirmation that something was known.
Ancient man expressed his knowledge in a simple child like format as shown and roughly outlined above. Since wearing his shoes, Genesis day one has taken on impressive new look.

Ron Edwards - Seti Seeker.