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Given the premise that extra-terrestrials (ETs) exist and some communicate with each other, they must have a method of coordinating events. We coordinate by using Universal Coordinated Time but I doubt ETs will be using the Earth second as a standard. I envision a 'commerce time' (local use) and a 'scientific time' (universal ET use). What process would ET use to establish each planets "commerce time unit"? What process would ET use to establish a common "scientific time unit"? |
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I would like to provide some comments based upon the first question of the previous post. "What process would ET use to establish each planets "commerce time unit" Local planetary time is probably the easiest to visualize because one complete rotation of an object would be interpreted the same throughout the universe, even though the duration of one rotation may be larger or smaller than others. There is no absolute rule on how this one rotation can be broken down into smaller segments. Our use of a base 60 type segment is not necessarily the best way to create a time system. The old Chinese and the ancient Egyptians used decimal type segments, but each was implemented differently. It should be considered that many inhabited planets could coincidentally develop the same type of time segment system, but if their rotation periods were different the segments would be different lengths. Locally this makes no difference as the particular segments accurately divide their one rotation to suit provincial commerce. Our current system was developed thousands of years ago when the available tools that could measure a time segment were limited, and I doubt they could precisely measure a single "second". Given our current technology level, if we were dropped onto a planet and asked if we would prefer a base 10 time segment system versus a base 60 system, what system would we choose? I think it would depend upon the type metrology system used overall, as a time segment system could not be implemented without being influenced by the other units of measure. In general, we have adopted a decimal type metrology system but still use a non-decimal time segment. Overall, I don't think it really makes a difference how various ETs developed their planetary time division system for one rotation, but I am sure it would be of academic interest to know the logic behind the choices. I do think an intelligent species would change their time segment system if it were based upon an archaic concept they had technologically outgrown. |
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How could a scientific time unit be defined? Because very few planets will have the exact rotation period, it would be difficult to justify how a time unit could be based upon planetary rotation. There is no standard rotation rate. Our unit of time (the second) has a mathematical basis and unless someone can describe a method that wouldn't use mathematics, a scientific time unit will have to be mathematically defined. Is there any value in the official list of constants that is truly universal that might be the basis for defining a time unit? Are there any physical science constants, though not officially defined as constants, that might be acceptable? |
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One of the issues that constrains our perspective is how we are taught to view the characteristics of our physical surroundings. We can't avoid being taught about lengths, weights and temperatures and the means by which they are expressed, but few people realize how these "units" are defined. It is fine to have values that provide a standard to suit "commercial" purposes, but should scientific results be based upon these values? We can examine the official constants to see where we are at. The official constants may or may not have a unit designation, i.e. meters, second, kilogram, etc., or are dimensionless. Many of the physical science constants are not well known except to those that work in particular science disciplines. Few people realize that the units that describe scientific values are not mathematically based or are not real constants in themselves, but are peculiar to our planetary characteristics or simply adopted to establish a "standard". The numeric value of the speed-of-light is dependent upon the unit of length and the unit of time. The unit of length, the meter, has been around fewer years than the megalithic yard. Although we tend to think that the "second", its duration, has always been the same (since Babylonian times), other old civilizations had used a different length period for their time unit. Both the old Chinese and the ancient Egyptians had a time unit based upon decimal (base 10) divisions of one earth rotation (each implemented it differently), as compared to the Babylonian base 60 system of divisions. Whenever a physical science numeric value depends upon a "defined" unit, it is essentially a "conditional" value. The speed-of-light is described by two"defined units, neither being mathematically derived or a true physical science constant. I suspect a truly intelligent ET would have determined a better way to define the speed-of-light. Are we there yet? |
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maybe they've already crossed the bounderies of time... |
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Seven_Seas_Of_Rhye schrieb:maybe they've already crossed the bounderies of time... Perhaps, and they may have already delivered their message(s). I want you to consider a simple right triangle, one that is defined by the cosecant value of 2.2606459658983 . The precision of the value is important. Multiply that value by 2 pi (6.2831.... ) to the same precision, and then multiply by 100 to give it an appropriate scaling factor. Many of you will recognize the value, others will not. When considered as a frequency in MHz, it is one of the most well known values in the physical sciences. Its wavelength is usually referred to as the 21 cm line. Every intelligent ET would be familiar with that wavelength value, but in their units of measure. The right triangle has some unique characteristics. The information conveyed in the triangle was part of the message left to us a long time ago. I did not create the triangle, I discovered its description in a very old "document". Our scientists discovered the 1420 MHz emission just a little over 50 years ago. How did somebody know that value many centuries earlier? |
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There are a number of ways to present the information that is contained in the right triangle identified in the previous post. I have a variety of writeups but the simplest at the moment, which explains the trigonometric-electromagnetic relationships, is in the following small pdf article (14k). Just who, many centuries ago, knew how to present in a simple dimensional form a mathematical relationship that enables the speed of light (SOL) to be described mathematically? |
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I've updated the mathematics to provide the equations that allow a value for the speed of light to be mathematically derived, which mutually defines a time duration. The added equations are in the section "Euclidean Wavelength Frequency Relationships". I retained the indirect mathematical processes to illustrate the relationships. I changed the name of the article to better reflect the process used to derive the base units. |
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rmendler am 12.08.2006, 11:06
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Hallo Currere, Still is it not yet important which time some possible aliens use. But when someday some of them will visit us and contacting us, I think it is not very difficult to find a possibility for same time-check. If you f.e. take the oscillation of quartz. I think the oscillation of any element is in the hole universe the same like here. You only must agree with the ET´s which element you will use and the zero-point from which you will start to count. I think, it could be so easy. Ciao René |
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If everyone uses a "time unit" with a different duration, a specific oscillation, f.e. hydrogen hyperfine, the numeric value assigned to the frequency of that oscillation would be different. Frequency is the number of waves in a unit of time. If we cannot come up with the same mathematically derived "time unit" that all other intelligent species are using, then we will be considered very primitive. |
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